译者访谈系列:辛亥百年 对话张鸣、雪珥(四)

核心提示:“译者访谈”是我们推出的系列音频采访。所有音频可以通过wuala上的链接免费下载(陆续更新中),有苹果设备的可以先连接VPN,然后在iTunes上用“译者”搜索即可订阅下载。


【“译者访谈”系列节目的片花和节选就是“中国声音”集锦】

本次访谈的音频可以在这里下载收听(下)

In 1911, when the revolution broke out in Wuhan, it was really a high time for something terminal to happen to the Qing.

Jonathan Fenby on the 1911 Chinese revolution.

That was an important time for a number of reasons. First of all, it was the end of an empire which existed for more than 2000 years, that itself is an enormous event; secondly, the intial period of the nationalistic victories in the late 1920s certainly did represent a time when China wanted to modernize, it wanted to modernize the economy, and lots of plans were laid for that. The trouble was the internal unrest and the Japanese invasions put an end to that; it is also important in that if it did not have this period, like China was drawing its breath, waiting for what was going to happen next. Maybe we will not have the 1949 take-over by the communists. If, if, and it’s a big “if”, China had not gone through all the unrest that it did in the 1920s and 30s, and the invasion lasting through the 1945, it is possible that the country would have launched onto a modernization path, such as we have seen in China over the last three decades, that’s the great what-ifs of history that historians will be arguing about for a long time to come. But I think for these reasons, 1911 and the application of Puyi, the infant empiror in Feburary in 1912 were very very important events of world history which should be remembered, and which are important also because they form the backdrop of context within which China has evolved since 1949. And there are those who would say if Jiang Jie Shek were to be reborn and was living in Shanghai literally today, he would go to the river side bond and look out all the glimming towers and modernization of China, and say that’s what we were all about in 1911-1912. They were not able to do it then, but China is doing it today.

YZ:刚才您听到的是英国作家乔纳森·芬比谈辛亥革命的意义,他提到了历史学家们一个巨大的假设,如果没有日本侵华战争[和内战],洋务运动、戊戌变法、预备立宪,民国初建……沿着这条道路,中国是否会走向全面的现代化?不仅仅是经济上的腾飞,而且是政治上的宪政、共和和法治,中国是否失去了一次伟大的历史机遇?它又是如何失去的?

译者访谈第七期下半部分,我们和张鸣、雪珥继续探讨,辛亥百年,得与失。

YZ:刚才张鸣老师谈到了一个很重要的话题,就是民族矛盾。不光是皇权,现在更重要的是,民智一开以后,民众的自我意识首先是你是哪个族的。这个在100年前是一个非常难突破的问题。您是怎么看的?国家矛盾变成了民族矛盾,国仇家恨合到一块儿让汉人不可能再辅佐清廷了。

XE:实际上这还是牵涉到一个权威资源的问题。满人的统治确实如张老师所说,它是一个少数民族的政权,他的合法性很低,权威资源也不是很充沛,它是典型的“枪杆子里出政权”,就是非常典型的用“枪杆子”把四万万中国人控制起来。但是到了辛亥前的阶段,因为很多人都在说满汉矛盾,其实我觉得这是在当时,革命党利用民族情绪来进行革命动员,试图获取更多资源的一种手段。

YZ:但是它还是能够利用这一点啊。比如说现在大陆和台湾,你想利用民族情绪这个很困难。革命党能利用就说明这的确是当时的普通人是容易附和的一个心态,就象我们今天说”反日“一样,很容易就召集起很多人来。

XE:实际上我是不赞同把满汉冲突当成民族矛盾,当然满汉冲突是有,而且在1911年前后还比较激烈,但我认为满汉冲突严格来说不是民族矛盾,满族,这个所谓的统治阶级,更确切地说应该是旗人,里面有满人,也有汉人,所谓的“满汉不通婚”严格来说应该是“旗汉不通婚”。旗人中也有汉人,严格意义上来讲它不是民族上的、血统上的划分,而是一种阶级划分。我认为它是一种阶级划分。汉人可以通过“抬旗”进入统治阶级,只要进入旗人之后,在旗人自己内部无论是满还是汉都可以通婚。满汉的区分,还包括当时设立的一些隔离政策,倾斜性的政策,这不是民族歧视,我认为这不是种族歧视,而是阶级歧视。就好比你获得了工人身份,你本来是农民,不能吃商品粮,因为我给你“抬旗”了,就成了旗人,你就可以吃商品粮,就成了工人。但是在革命过程中,用满汉矛盾号召大家起来革命,这一点不是革命党首创的,这在1894年甲午战争的时候,日本人就是这么干的。日本人但凡占领一地,军队贴出来的布告就是说,我们是来“驱除鞑虏”的,我们是把中国人从鞑虏中解放出来,恢复到“三王”的时候,恢复到尧舜禹的年代。在这种动员之下当时的英国人甚至都注意到,英国驻天津的总领事发报告说,说日本人的宣传有效到连天津水师学堂的学生都为日本人在东北取得的胜利而高兴,因为”这下我们终于可以得到解放了“。辛亥前后用满汉矛盾,所谓“驱除鞑虏、恢复中华”来作为革命口号,我们不能单独看字面上的东西,应该要再往前至少推十多年,来看在那个年代之下这个已经就成为推翻现政府,夺取政权的一个比较有力的武器。

(未完待续)

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